Interview with a Milwaukee Barista

It’s been quiet here on The NBB, but that’s mental health issues for you. Thankfully, I’m back on an upswing and am coming at you all with a few new posts that I’ve been working on. 

A couple of weeks ago, I got to interview an awesome barista out of Milwaukee who has wished to remain anonymous. What I really appreciated about them is at the end of our conversation, they asked me what my goal was with these posts and it really got me thinking. I had this idea to interview TGNC baristas because it seemed like a way to engage with what was going on around me, since I couldn’t participate in the protests in person due to health concerns. 

Sophia Roe, recently, did a beautiful talk on Instagram about the difference between reaction and response. My original intention with these interviews was more about what could I offer, which was sharing these stories. This was a reaction. Meanwhile, as I talked with and interviewed more people, the protests evolved and my view on what I was doing with these interviews changed. I’ve learned so much from every interview and I want to share more stories not because it’s something that I’m doing but because these stories and experiences are so much bigger than myself or this blog. I’m not one to care about blog statistics, but these interview posts don’t always do as well with views but I think that making space for these people who are willing to take time out of their day to share their experiences protesting is more important than page views and likes.

***The below interview has been lightly edited for length and some details have been omitted to respect their privacy.

Would you like to introduce yourself?

My name is *name redacted*. I use they/them pronouns. I’m based in Milwaukee, Wisconsin.

So, you were involved with all the protests. Can you tell me what all you did?

The first thing to know is that Milwaukee is statistically the most segregated city in the US and, as such, we’re fairly accustomed to police brutality and civil unrest here. To the point where when cops shoot people, it doesn’t make the national news. About four years ago, an officer shot an unarmed mentally ill black man steps away from city hall and was shot multiple times and we don’t hear about it. His name was Dontre Hamilton, and that officer never went to prison. He did stand trial, but there were riots here for quite a while. Because of that existing social dynamic, there’s a really strong activist network here. There’s not like one person who is the face. There are several different people. A few weeks before George Floyd was murdered, an officer here in Milwaukee killed a young man named [Lucas J.] Alverado, and that officer is still suspended with pay and is still not charged. So, there were protests here before but when the national outrage over George Floyd’s death got people out to the streets, those protests escalated. A lot of people think of Milwaukee as this white outdoorsy place and, some of the state is, absolutely, but the larger ethnic majority is Black and that definitely is not reflected in representation, business owners, anything. 

So, how did you get involved? Did you go by yourself, connect with any of these activist groups, or meet people along the way? 

I went by myself. At the time, it was really well known here that cops were tracking people and so, if you organized with people about when you were going to meet or anything like that, it was pretty well-known that you were going to be tracked down and arrested. So, I just went. Some of the different activists, activist groups, local community organizers, and politicians were posting about the protests in different places. Here, people were marching 5-10 miles a day so it was really easy to catch up with them at some point during the protests, and march with them. They’re still marching. And so, I brought extra masks and bandanas. I had those on hand. People have been really good about wearing masks at the protests, which is really good. 

Yeah, I kept noticing that and kept hearing from people that weren’t for the protests saying, “Yeah, the protests are the reason that Covid is spiking.” And I kept telling them, “No, literally, in all the protest photos that I see, everyone’s wearing masks.” All the pictures that I would see, it was all the cops that weren’t wearing masks. Like now, they kind of are. They’ve kind of caught on but… it’s kind of hit or miss, but no, it’s the cops who aren’t wearing them.

Yeah, that’s not good. 

We had curfew enacted here and I never stayed out passed curfew for a  lot of different reasons. Despite my whiteness, I am still a person who is more vulnerable to be a target of violence so I still try not to stay out after dark. I have friends who were ticketed and arrested after dark. There were a few instances where the police were getting aggravated, up in people’s faces, and I put my body between the cop and whomever it was because I felt pretty confident that I was right but the cops weren’t going to hurt me because that would be a bad video for them. 

I mean they’ve kind of been showing that they don’t care about bad videos at this point.

Right, well, they’ll think twice. They are less likely to hit a blond white person than anyone else. 

What was your experience out there and how does that compare to how people were writing about the protests and talking about it?

So, I’m very aware that I live in my own socialist bubble. A lot of the content that I saw about the protests were from people that were actively supportive of the protests or actively participating in them but I did see people who were like, “These protests are violent. The 1963 March on Washington, when we got Civil Rights, we got without any violence.” 

I felt like most of the media coverage talked about the violence of the protests as though it was one of those things that was inevitable. That the protests were going to become violent, when in fact I never saw any violence from protestors. Cops were quick to use batons and tear gas, and, even as stories were coming out that disproved these claims about who started it, what prompted it, meanwhile the media was just reporting on it like, “Here’s this fascinating other side to this story. Like wow, the cops could be lying.” 

It’s one of those things where the assertion was made and continues to be made that, despite all this evidence that we have, that it’s the police that are arresting people, tazing them, tear gassing them, and that they were justified. And I think that that comes from our social belief that fundamentally, the police only target people who do bad things and the police don’t arrest bad people. I find it demoralizing that as we get more and more irrefutable evidence that that’s not true, that the conversation and the perception doesn’t seem to be changing genuinely. Like talking about it as though there are a couple of bad apples and not that every time that force is used is bad. There’s no reason for tear gas to ever be used. That is not ever justifiable. 

So, how did things change day-to-day? As the protests evolved, I’m sure so did protestors, the marches, etc. 

The marches, themselves, have scaled down quite a bit. There were a lot of back-to-back ten mile marches going in different directions, going out to the suburbs. At one point, several players from the Bucks joined in, which gave a lot of credibility to the marches but that was fleeting. It also was a great show of solidarity that these professional athletes came out. When curfew was put into effect and the National Guard was brought in, they were flying helicopters overhead, the mood definitely changed here. It became very much a kind of us-versus-them, as though we were under attack from our own government, and I guess we are. And, while the mayor and the governor, both eventually moved the national guard and curfew, things are definitely not back to normal. 

Do you see any similarities between the protests and your work in coffee?

I don’t know if I saw any similarities, but I definitely learned a lot from the protests and the organizers that is applicable to my work in coffee. Like there was a disability friendly march that was done, where they organized  so that people who used wheelchairs were able to participate in the march. That really changed and challenged the way that I think about accessibility, that there really is no reason that everything shouldn’t be accessible. Like, when you work in coffee and especially when you work as a barista in a cafe, you are literally serving your community. 

The weird thing for me was the last cafe that I spent most of my career was in an extremely high end and wealthy neighborhood, where racism was rampant. Early on, when the shop was open, we would have cops come in and ask if we had seen a Black man and that was it. Not, did you see someone that matches this description? It was, “Did you see a Black man walking around down here?” Asserting that Black straight up was a crime in that neighborhood. So, in a lot of ways, the protests were more about serving my community than working in coffee ever has been. I knew a lot of other baristas who were out marching. 

So, what safety measures did you take to protect yourself from Covid? From the police?

Well, I had Covid early on and this was back in the days when it was like, “If you’ve had it, you have immunity.” And, now, it’s like, “Well… maybe not!” 

I’m gonna be honest when I say that I didn’t think that hard when protecting myself from Covid, like I wore a mask and changed masks. Things like that. And I kept masks around for other people. Tried to maintain some level of distance. 

I took goggles with me and used them, wore glasses instead of contacts, just in case I got tear gassed or pepper sprayed. Which did happen, do not recommend. And, I took small bottles of water with me as well. To protect myself from the police, most of the time I had my head covered completely to reduce identifiable characteristics. The fact that we were all wearing masks is a great deterrent. I wore all black to reduce the possibility of being identified. 

So, what’s been your biggest take away from all this?

I mean there’s a couple of things. First, I wish the community valued the people who die in it. Like within this community, they should value them more because it wasn’t until George Floyd was murdered that people really started to hit the streets and you know, we’ve had dozens of children murdered by cops in the last ten years. There was a brief period here where it seemed like we got some traction but the police force and the government here is deeply racist. And, the way this city has dealt with Covid is deeply racist. It is massively and disproportionately affecting the Black community. And I wish that I could say that maybe something has changed but it seems like for the most part that there are some people who have some privilege, who were really excited to protest for a couple weeks and then they just got bored. And there’s still a lot of talk about how “you can’t go to that neighborhood because it’s not safe there.” While protesting police violence is important and that is technically what these protests are about, it is disheartening to see how racism is pervasive. That it has not changed the way in which people are actually thinking about how people are dealing with race.

Yeah, I’ve started noticing kind of like a shift from “Black Lives Matter” and, there’s still a little bit of that, but now it’s police brutality. And like you said, that’s a huge part of the issue but now, and like I’m based in Portland, so now it’s like let’s talk about how the Feds are here and how they are taking people. Let’s talk about how the police are tear gassing everyone. And it’s like that is the point but it’s not the broader point. We’re losing the Black Lives Matter aspect of the protest of police brutality.

Right. There has been so much rhetoric about Fuck the Police, All Cops are Bastards, which is not an inherently bad position but the fact that that’s the rhetoric and people are profiting off of those messages is just furthering the devaluing of Black Lives. 

Yeah, one of my friends shared something that was talking about this idea and it struck me that literally all the conversations that I’ve had with people lately have been about Fuck the Police and not about Black lives. Like I’m guilty of this too. We need to shift the focus back.

Right. We can have both conversations. We should be having both conversations. I have seen, like there was this big push to buy from Black owned businesses for a while and, I got be honest, I don’t remember the last time that I saw somebody post or retweet a list of Black coffee roasters. Or the new Barista Magazine features Black coffee professionals, which is great but that should be normal though. There’s a post on social media that’s been getting retweeted and shared that is, “It’s Black Lives Matter before Fuck the police.” 

A huge thank you to this barista again for their time. If you want to share your story, shoot me an email (that’s in the about page) and we can set it up. And, saying it again, Black Lives Matter!

Interview with Fae

After interviewing Felix, I put out a call on Twitter that I wanted to interview other Trans and Gender Non-Conforming coffee peeps that were protesting and were willing to share about their experience. I got a few people that were willing to give me their time and energy to answering my questions and one of those was Fae. They have requested to remain anonymous (aside from what they’ve given below) since they are still very much involved and I completely respect their privacy.

Tell me a little about yourself. 
Hey, this is Fae and I use they/them pronouns. I have been protesting in the Seattle area and I am a barista here. I am lucky to work for a wonderful company that understands and supports the protests and the BLM movement in general. I am new-ish to the area and come from a small midwestern town so it has been a huge adjustment moving to such a welcoming, inclusive, and accepting city. 

So, you’ve been involved with the protests going on. Can you tell me what you did/are currently doing?
The day that George Floyd’s death was televised I knew that I could no longer be silent on the way our country is run. I had been vocal about supporting BLM in the past and had spoken out about being anti-racist and the changes we, as a country, needed to make but coming from the midwest my voice was often heard as being “radical” and was swept under the rug. Being somewhere with thousands of voices echoing the cries of the marginalized and oppressed made me find the strength to finally do more than simply talk about the issues at hand. I participated in protests every day for the first three weeks. I was usually on the front line and over time had to acquire full riot gear of my own for defensive purposes. Eventually, due to personal chronic illnesses and excessive inhalation of tear gas, I had to stop being on the front lines and started focusing my energies to sharing information and resources online.

How did you get involved? By yourself, with a group, met people along the way, etc.
I had loosely been involved prior to the protests with donations to BLM and open discussions educating people on the history of systemic racism and providing tools for self education on anti-racism but it was not until George Floyd’s death sparked protests across the country that I really got hands-on in my involvement. I made the decision to participate on my own and my partner decided to join me the day of the first protest because they realized that now was not the time to be petrified into silence. We participated in the protests for a few weeks and, when CHOP/CHAZ was born, we divided our time up between protesting, engaging with organizers and speakers, and donating what we could to the activists holding down the precinct.

What was your experience like out there? How does that compare with how people are talking/writing about it on the news and social media?
My experience was…unfortunately, what I had expected. Our country has a long standing history of attempting to silence those that speak out against oppression within our own governing forces. We are indoctrinated from such an early age to believe that this is the greatest country in the world and that we all have the freedom to do whatever we want with our lives and when someone looks past those falsities and promises to recognize the broken shambles of freedom that we are presented with, it becomes problematic to the entire structure of this country.

During the first two weeks of the protests, I was tear gassed, maced, and shot with rubber bullets. Even when I was not on the frontline, my neighborhood was caught in the crossfire and I was gassed in my own home. The police claimed to use de-escalation techniques but they were out there day and night in full riot gear in a vain attempt to intimidate protesters into silencing their voices. Protesters would cry out for the officers to remove their gear, to go home for the night, to join the protests, and to really do anything at all to show that their words were not empty and that they truly did want to protect and serve their community. Their actions spoke so much louder than their words. My fear of the police has not diminished during these protests, instead it has been amplified and joined by anger.

The mainstream media seemed confused as to how it wanted to portray the protests, particularly once Trump started to tweet out to Seattle. On one hand, the media understands that sensationalizing and fear mongering is what often leads to viewership, but on the other hand…most media did not want to appeal to right-wing extremists or be seen as being supportive of Trump. The representation of the protests varies greatly depending on what news source you turn to. One incident can look like 20 different things depending on what angle it was photographed and what article is attached to it. It is disheartening to say the least. 

Social media has proven to be a critical asset to the BLM movement and to protester correspondence. I found that it was easier to find accurate information and first hand experience on social media in contrast to the mainstream media. Even now, when I am primarily participating from the background, social media is one of the main ways I interact and inform myself on the ongoing protests. It has been a wealth of knowledge for me, and hopefully many others, to tap into. 

What is interesting is the differences in perception of the protests. I try to follow trending hashtags and topics online and there appear to be three different types of people in the current political climate: BLM protesters and supporters, right-wing extremist Trump supporters, and those that believe racism is dead by “not seeing color”. It truly seems as if we are not all living in the same reality. 

How have things changed day-to-day?
I have been attempting to keep a log of the progress of the protests, local legislation, and current events. There is so much mixed messages online that it is easy to get lost in the noise. The media has, for the most part, stopped reporting on the protests unless there is property damage so a lot of people seem to think that the anger behind them was unjustified and short lived. It amazes me how many people do not recognize that the protests are still ongoing and that there is evidence of tremendous oppression and systemic racism in our country. 

My day to day has primarily changed in how I interact with people. I no longer find myself willing to accept silence as an option and I have injured many of my familial relationships with my “political” viewpoints on these issues. I find myself noticing things more often in the media I consume and going out of my way to properly educate myself and consume media that better represents the direction I hope that this country takes. I have been trying to support more BIPOC artists, entrepreneurs, advocates, organizations, and etc. 

Do you see any similarities between your work in coffee and protesting? 
The coffee industry is very new to me. Coming from a small midwestern town, there was not a lot of coffee culture in my life. I used to get excited if I saw a Starb*cks. From the few years that I have spent in the craft coffee industry I have noticed that it is a predominantly cis hetero white male industry. I find it odd that so much of the process of making coffee is done by POC and yet those that are in the public eye…are incredibly white. This has become more clear to me during my time protesting because I realized that the changes that need to be made in this country are more than just policing or government changes. Our entire society has been whitewashed and it has become so normalized that many of us are unable or unwilling to recognize it as anything besides standard. 

What safety measures did you take to protect yourself from the police, feds (if applicable), and Covid?
As someone with chronic illnesses, I was already very paranoid due to COVID. I had debated not attending the protests due to quarantine but inevitably realized that systemic change was more pressing and it was something that I was willing to die fighting for. I initially only took small precautions at the protests. I wore a mask due to COVID, I wore all black for anonymity, and I made sure to bring sanitizer and a fresh water bottle. 
As the protests wore on my concerns in protection derailed from COVID into protection from officers, legalities, and the feds. I invested in goggles to help with tear gas and mace. I invested in a gas mask to help with tear gas. I started wearing long sleeves to cover up any identifiable markings. I made sure to take indirect routes from my house. I changed my social media presence. I realized that this was going to be a very long process and that it was likely going to get a lot worse before it got any better. 

Biggest takeaway from what you’ve seen and experienced protesting?
I have a lot more privilege in this country than I had been raised to recognize and being able to admit that is not a fault. It takes time and effort to unlearn indoctrination, especially something that is so ingrained into nearly every asset of our lives. I recognize now that simply not being racist is not enough and that I need to do more with my privilege to listen to, engage with, and help lift the BIPOC voices that are being silenced in our country. I need to educate myself and not be afraid of admitting my privilege and ignorance in the systems of oppression I have benefited from. Silence is not an option when so many people are not allowed to speak. 
I have also learned that it is not my place to say how another person should protest. It is easy to ask for things to remain “peaceful” when you are not the one at the root of the suffering. Historically, being “peaceful” is a great way to be silenced and ignored. I now recognize that “riots”, “looters”, and “arsonists” are all words that are used to discredit the anger at the source of the action. Property should not matter more than people and yet it is only when there is a financial implication that the media and government seem to pay attention. 

I hope that this country, and the citizens within, can push past pride and work towards enlightenment and acceptance of the changes that need to be made in order to rectify the outstanding years of oppression and damages that have been done. We need to listen to the firsthand experiences of those that are being impacted by these systems of oppression and highlight their voices. We need to do better. 

Thank you so much, Fae, for sharing your story and loved every word. If you want to share your experience with me, you can find my email address in the About page above and we can set something up. Stay safe out there, peeps.

Interview with Patricia (They/Them)

Unfortunately, I’ve been sitting on this interview for way too long. Patricia reached out to me awhile back when I wanted to do a whole series of interviews and a larger article with other Non-Binary baristas and still would love to, but major life events and Covid have put that on pause for now. However, I still think that what they have to say is so important and didn’t want it to sit in my drafts any longer. 

Patricia (they/them)
@pandemic_atthe_disco

How long have you worked in coffee? 

I’ve been in coffee on and off for 5 years.

Oh wow, awesome! What has your experience been in relation to your identity? Have/do your coworkers/employers know? If so, how have they supported you? Or not?

It’s only been recently that I have settled into my identity as genderqueer and using my pronouns. In that year of settling, I don’t think any of my coworkers have asked. I have had one employer ask but I think it was prompted by a conversation he had with another. I don’t hide my identity but it’s not something that is engaged unless I insert myself which often I’m too tired to.

I totally relate to that. At a lot of my jobs, I was the only genderqueer person on staff so I felt like I didn’t want to bring it up unless someone else did because of how much mental energy it took. How has being in a job that is highly public in nature played a part or effected how you present yourself?

I’m very masculine-presenting or, at least, I feel that way. I feel most comfortable in a button-down, a dad hat, and pants with nice pockets. Lol, yet that hasn’t stopped customers from calling me ma’am, girl, lady, miss, etc.

What would you want customers to know?

Lol, I’m not ma’am.

Haha, truth.

I get called girl but I never hear customers call my cis male coworker, “boy.” I think men get the luxury of having gender-neutral terms used towards them but society wants me to know “I’m a girl.”

I remembered this older woman’s order and name the other day and it made her so happy, then she proceeded to say, “Wow, what a smart girl!” Like thanks, but not a girl and not going to make a big deal about this because I don’t have the energy.

It sours the whole interaction. I could have a great moment of connection with a customer and as soon as they call me girl, I get depleted. I want to be like Janet from The Good Place and just interject “not a girl” or “not a ma’am” or “they” after every misgendering. Also, I’m 31 and, even if I identified with my assigned gender, I would still feel I’m not a girl, fam. I’m grown.

Great point! Platforms like Instagram have helped me connect with baristas from all over, and, in talking with so many, I’ve grown hopeful at the future of coffee being more diverse and inclusive. Do you feel the same? (Obviously, feel free to disagree with me.) Where do you think the industry needs to grow?

I think when it is no longer associated with straight-size white cis males with a tattoo sleeve and starts being associated with its origin which is Ethiopia then maybe. But it will take those same white cis males to move out of the way and give up their space for Black Baristas, roosters, etc to thrive.

There is an organization here in Memphis, called Cxffee Black, and it’s this Black man who is introducing Ethiopian coffee back to ppl especially Black ppl, and if more coffee shops sell his stuff and promote his brand and invest in him the better. Like someone should be like, “Hey, let us give you a coffee shop.”

I’ve heard of Cxffee Black and the great work they’ve been doing!

Love them!

Something else I’ve been seeing is this growing gap between old world coffee (the white cis male with tattoo sleeves coffee) and these newer coffee people like Cxffee Black, Glitter Cat, the Chocolate Barista, and the discussions around paying more for coffee to support the areas it comes from and the people that grow it.

Plus, I think the ppl who run the shops need to create an environment where their non-binary folx knew if they inserted their gender with a customer, the bosses would have their back. But, I don’t know if that’s the case. Like I don’t really know if I corrected a customer when they call me girl. Like it’s about the beans and representing the brand and I don’t know if this genderqueer babe with they/them pronouns standing up for themselves against misgendering is on brand. At least, not at my shop because that tone hasn’t been set.

Very true. Not only does it take mental energy, there’s a vulnerability about it because pronouns are so personal. If a customer doesn’t take to that correction and goes to the manager/owner, then it becomes a matter of standing by your employee or by the customer.

Right. So I wrestle with does it really matter. I don’t know this person but it’s never just the one time person. There are regulars who are kind and like me and are happy to see me, but constantly misgender me. So, I have to try and be a duck but I’m not a duck. I’m a cat, and I don’t want to be in the water.

Exactly. So, those are all the questions that I have. Is there anything else that you would like to add/talk about? I really appreciate you taking the time to talk about this with me.

I think I just wished there was a way customers knew coming in or before ordering my pronouns and how to address me so that I don’t have to internally cringe through their order. Like a sign outside saying, “You are being served by Patricia (they/them). They are excited to meet your coffee needs, enjoy. -management”

That would be awesome. I’ve tried wearing pronoun pin, but they have limited success because most misgendering happens from people that aren’t paying much attention. Like, I’ll hand them their coffee and they’ll say as they are leaving, “Thanks ma’am.” Or “Hey girl, where’s the bathroom? Over there?”

I had another thought.

I also have the fear of asserting my gender because I’m Black. I’m the only Black barista on staff (there was once two of us), and the only visible POC at the company. At my location, I service upper crust white womxn and mxn so there is that fear that maybe even without my knowledge of being seen by them as the angry Black (in their misgendering of me) woman.

That is a totally valid fear, and a layer I hadn’t considered. That is definitely a huge concern.

A huge thanks to Patricia for their insight and time. If you want talk about about your experience as a Non-Binary Barista, let me know! I’d love to hear your story.